Mageia 9 - Installer

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it does
not do it.
The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen. It
also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in writing. 6
minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally useless only
contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the installation.

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which does
not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by dividing
the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And that jumps
up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or from a HD.

Herman Viaene

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-11-29 14:45:39 UTC

In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in Mageia
distribution it works very erratically. I think it would be better to
remove it and leave a count of the remaining packages for the end of the
installation.

This is not important for how the distribution works, but it leaves a
bad impression for someone trying the distribution for the first time.

--
Abraços

Gilberto F da Silva

Herman Viaene

2022-11-30 15:59:24 UTC

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And
that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or
from a HD.
Herman Viaene

In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in Mageia
distribution it works very erratically.

Some hide the fact by not incrementing the time count as Mageia does.
I've seen downloads/installations hang at "30 seconds remaining" for over
1 minute. I don't know, and I really don't care, if that leaves a better
impression....

Herman

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-01 01:49:35 UTC

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And
that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or
from a HD.
Herman Viaene

In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in

Mageia

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
distribution it works very erratically.

For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
working on the distribution.

--
Abraços

Gilberto F da Silva

Doug Laidlaw

2022-12-02 18:41:31 UTC

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And
that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or
from a HD.
Herman Viaene

In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in

Mageia

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
distribution it works very erratically.

For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
working on the distribution.

Mageia DOES have limited resources. For that reason, the old Mandriva
tools give way to what matters, the software.

If you think that manpower is a problem, you can always jump in and
help. Mageia is always looking for members who want to give something
back. I suggested an improvement to one of the tools. The reply I got
was that the software is all open source, so I am free to try my own
ideas. See

https://www.mageia.org/en/contribute/.

It will give you an idea of what it takes for Mageia (or any distro, for
that matter), even to see the light of day.

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-03 21:10:46 UTC

Post by Doug Laidlaw

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed. And
that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the internet or
from a HD.
Herman Viaene

In other distributions I've seen this timer working fine but in

Mageia

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
distribution it works very erratically.

For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
working on the distribution.

Mageia DOES have limited resources. For that reason, the old Mandriva
tools give way to what matters, the software.
If you think that manpower is a problem, you can always jump in and
help. Mageia is always looking for members who want to give something
back. I suggested an improvement to one of the tools. The reply I got
was that the software is all open source, so I am free to try my own
ideas. See
https://www.mageia.org/en/contribute/.

I translated some things into Portuguese and Esperanto. Unfortunately,
for Esperanto no one else is translating.

2022-12-02 23:00:21 UTC

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
For those of us who have been using Mageia for a long time, this doesn't
make much difference, but it does leave a feeling of the lack of people
working on the distribution.

And why is that a bad thing? Seems to me that Mageia's limited manpower
is choosing substance over style, creating the best distro they can
without focusing on a bunch of window dressing that users won't see
again after the installation is complete.

TJ

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-03 20:50:35 UTC

Among so many distributions, the Mandrake distribution had a well-made
look. That was it differentiator. I still try to use this distro but I
believe it has little appeal to new users. Imagine someone trying to
install Mageia for the first time and being faced with an installer that
shows inaccurate information. The rest may work perfectly fine but the
initially user-visible part will not. This will already leave a bad
impression.

--
Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-02 22:45:49 UTC

When I first started installing from a usb drive, I noticed how much
more inaccurate the timer is with that than when optical media are used.
When I remarked about it, it was explained to me this way, no doubt
simplified for the uninitiated:

Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete the
installation.

The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
timer that updates more often would make install from optical media take
even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even worse
than an inaccurate timer does.

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-04 15:00:49 UTC

I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer doesn't
work well.

Post by TJ
Every time you update the timer, you steal a few processor cycles to do
it, processor cycles that would otherwise be used to install something.
This lengthens the total install time, only a tiny bit each time, but
the more often you update the timer, the longer it takes to complete the
installation.

On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I don't
notice a slowdown on installation. How many cycles does the computer
need to do these maths? 100 or 200 cycles? On a computer running at 3
Giga Hertz this represents 0.00000006 seconds.

Post by TJ
The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
timer that updates more often would make install from optical media take
even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even worse
than an inaccurate timer does.

A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
packet remaining counter could be put in place.

--
Abraços

Gilberto F da Silva

Bit Twister

2022-12-04 17:02:16 UTC

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
packet remaining counter could be put in place.

Yeah, but users would be upset because remain package count does not tell
approximately how long it is going to take to completion.

Better might be size of remaining packages divided by current download
speed.

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-04 20:00:28 UTC

Post by Bit Twister

Yeah, but users would be upset because remain package count does not tell
approximately how long it is going to take to completion.
Better might be size of remaining packages divided by current download
speed.

If anyone implements any of these solutions I'll be glad.

Abraços

Gilberto

William Unruh

2022-12-04 22:57:52 UTC

Post by Bit Twister

Yeah, but users would be upset because remain package count does not tell
approximately how long it is going to take to completion.
Better might be size of remaining packages divided by current download
speed.

I think that is sort of what it does. But that can be a bad estimate.
The installation can be a majority of the time, rather thanthe
downloading time. And downloading time can vary by a 100%.

William Unruh

2022-12-04 22:55:59 UTC

I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer doesn't
work well.

What does "the installer timer works well" mean? What you wnat is
something that works well enough-- ie gives a feeling for how much more
time it will take. I have found that the Mageia install time estimate
overestimates the time remaining. That is good in my opinion. You get
finished sooner than you fear. Who cares if it is 5 or even 15 min out?
I suppose if you want to install it and reserve 2 min in your day to
finish the installation, you might be annoyed that it was sitting there
waiting for you for 15 min. But again, it is better than finding that it
still has a half hour to go, when youcome back.
Ie, you are projecting onto the person installing a psychology which I
think is inaccurate.

Oh crap. It would have to estimate disk speed, cpu speed, internet
speed, etc, all of whichtake far more than.00000006 sec. NOt only that,
but all are highly variable and cannot be accurately predicted.

A timer is not essential for an installer. But if it's there, it's
supposed to work properly, if not, it's better to remove it. Only a
packet remaining counter could be put in place.

I disagree. But if you do not like it,just close your eyes and ignore
it.

Herman Viaene

2022-12-05 16:03:25 UTC

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it
does not do it.
The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen.
It also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in
writing. 6 minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally
useless only contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the
installation.

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed.
And that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the
internet or from a HD.
Herman Viaene

I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer doesn't
work well.

On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I

don't

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
notice a slowdown on installation. How many cycles does the computer
need to do these maths? 100 or 200 cycles? On a computer running at 3
Giga Hertz this represents 0.00000006 seconds.

Post by TJ
The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
timer that updates more often would make install from optical media
take even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even
worse than an inaccurate timer does.

Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.

I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
within the time prevision it firsty displays.

Herman Viaene

Bobbie Sellers

2022-12-05 19:59:30 UTC

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it
does not do it.
The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen.
It also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in
writing. 6 minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally
useless only contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the
installation.

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed.
And that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the
internet or from a HD.
Herman Viaene

I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer

doesn't

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
work well.

On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I

don't

Post by TJ
The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
timer that updates more often would make install from optical media
take even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even
worse than an inaccurate timer does.

Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
within the time prevision it firsty displays.
Herman Viaene

Herman you need to do your updates to PCLinux more often. The timer is
affected by various factors including web traffic. My download
times remain fairly steady and my Synaptic updates seldom take long and
I do not remember any 18 hour wait times being shown except on big
torrents.

bliss- nearly any fool can run a GNU/Linux computer...
So here I am again...

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-06 01:54:46 UTC

Post by Bobbie Sellers

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it
does not do it.
The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen.
It also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in
writing. 6 minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally
useless only contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the
installation.

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed.
And that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the
internet or from a HD.
Herman Viaene

I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer

doesn't

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
work well.

On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I

don't

Post by TJ
The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
timer that updates more often would make install from optical media
take even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even
worse than an inaccurate timer does.

Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
within the time prevision it firsty displays.
Herman Viaene

Well, then we have at least two distributions where the timer
doesn't work right.

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-06 01:39:35 UTC

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
The Mageia installer seems to be the same for a long time. I have
nothing old things as long as they work well but it seems that it
does not do it.
The timer works in an erratic way. It shows a while and is frozen.
It also changes in shape indicating a number and the time in
writing. 6 minutes, for example. The way this timer is totally
useless only contributing to the anxiety of those who are doing the
installation.

There is no timer in any installation program on any platform which
does not behave this way. That is because it calculates the time by
dividing the volume left to install by the CURRENT download speed.
And that jumps up and down all the time, whether it is from the
internet or from a HD.
Herman Viaene

I mean, you're corroborating what I said. Mageia install timer

doesn't

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
work well.

On other distributions I've tried, the timer works fine and I

don't

Post by TJ
The original timer was designed for use with optical media, and used
what was decided to be the best compromise between accuracy and install
time. The install isos are still designed to be usable with optical
media, to give the widest possible base of hardware a chance to use it,
so the older timer is still the one being used. It might be possible to
design a new installer that would detect the media being used and use a
timer designed for that media, but it would necessarily be larger, and
would crowd something else off of the install iso. And switching to a
timer that updates more often would make install from optical media
take even longer than it does now, which would make Mageia look even
worse than an inaccurate timer does.

Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
within the time prevision it firsty displays.

Debian, openSUSE Tumbleweed.

2022-12-07 13:12:07 UTC

Post by Herman Viaene
Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.
The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.
I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes
within the time prevision it firsty displays.

The problem, if there is one, isn't limited to installers.

The battery indicator in my Plasma panel is currently telling me that
the battery is at 70%, and there is "1:38" remaining. A couple of
minutes ago it was at 72%, with "2:25" remaining. And while I was typing
this, it dropped to 69%, with "2:14" remaining.

Now, I know that this battery should be replaced, because in another
5-10 minutes it will suddenly drop to below 10% and give me a low
battery warning. But the point is, the Plasma indicator is erratic and
obviously inaccurate.

And BTW, when I look at Plasma's "energy information," it tells me the
battery "health" is 100%. Also very wrong.

And something tells me it would be the same, no matter which distro's
Plasma I might be using.

TJ

Gilberto F da Silva

2022-12-07 20:44:08 UTC

The problem, if there is one, isn't limited to installers.
The battery indicator in my Plasma panel is currently telling me that
the battery is at 70%, and there is "1:38" remaining. A couple of
minutes ago it was at 72%, with "2:25" remaining. And while I was typing
this, it dropped to 69%, with "2:14" remaining.
Now, I know that this battery should be replaced, because in another
5-10 minutes it will suddenly drop to below 10% and give me a low
battery warning. But the point is, the Plasma indicator is erratic and
obviously inaccurate.
And BTW, when I look at Plasma's "energy information," it tells me the
battery "health" is 100%. Also very wrong.
And something tells me it would be the same, no matter which distro's
Plasma I might be using.

Knowing the remaining charge of a battery is not a simple task like
looking at the level of liquid in a tank. A bottle you look at it or
pick it up to know if it's full or empty. A battery has the same
appearance and weight whether it is charged or empty.

It is necessary for some hardware to convert voltage values for the
computer to try to estimate how much the battery is charged. In the case
of the installer it is quite different. There is a way to know exactly
how much is left to install.

I already understand that there are no personnel available to maintain
this program. Whoever wrote these routines has since left the project
and the program is now used as is.

--
Gilberto F da Silva

William Unruh

2022-12-07 21:11:28 UTC

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="h9uwAcbyVGqOfZukjINw62uZnmierciNQ";
protected-headers="v1"
Newsgroups: alt.os.linux.mageia
Subject: Re: Mageia 9 - Installer
--h9uwAcbyVGqOfZukjINw62uZnmierciNQ
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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Yesterday I did an update on PCLinuxOS, some 170 packages to download.=
The timer jumped up and down all the time between 30 min and 18 HOURS.=
I would like to see some timer on any OS for such thing that completes=
within the time prevision it firsty displays.

=20
The problem, if there is one, isn't limited to installers.
=20
The battery indicator in my Plasma panel is currently telling me that
the battery is at 70%, and there is "1:38" remaining. A couple of
minutes ago it was at 72%, with "2:25" remaining. And while I was typin=

Post by TJ
this, it dropped to 69%, with "2:14" remaining.
=20
Now, I know that this battery should be replaced, because in another
5-10 minutes it will suddenly drop to below 10% and give me a low
battery warning. But the point is, the Plasma indicator is erratic and
obviously inaccurate.
=20
And BTW, when I look at Plasma's "energy information," it tells me the
battery "health" is 100%. Also very wrong.
=20
And something tells me it would be the same, no matter which distro's
Plasma I might be using.

Knowing the remaining charge of a battery is not a simple task like
looking at the level of liquid in a tank. A bottle you look at it or
pick it up to know if it's full or empty. A battery has the same
appearance and weight whether it is charged or empty.
It is necessary for some hardware to convert voltage values for the
computer to try to estimate how much the battery is charged. In the case
of the installer it is quite different. There is a way to know exactly
how much is left to install.

You do not listen do you. As I have already said, it is NOT simple to
know how much time there is left to install. Downloading time varies by
orders of magnitude, depending on the congenstion between your machine
and the server, on your own computer's congestion,etc. And then there is
the installation time, which depends on many things as well.
Counting the number of files to be downloaded is a very bad estimate of
how long it will take to install them after they have been downloaded.
Counting their length similarly does not tell you what the lenght is.
Ie, you have never tried to write a program to determine what the
installation length is going to be and yet you claim yourself to be an
expert.

I already understand that there are no personnel available to maintain
this program. Whoever wrote these routines has since left the project
and the program is now used as is.
--=20
Gilberto F da Silva
--h9uwAcbyVGqOfZukjINw62uZnmierciNQ--
--YVesNkbvFvVMUT5VUWxTj2TBpJHka1fdW
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc"
--YVesNkbvFvVMUT5VUWxTj2TBpJHka1fdW--

Aragorn

2022-12-08 03:32:23 UTC

Post by William Unruh

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
Knowing the remaining charge of a battery is not a simple task like
looking at the level of liquid in a tank. A bottle you look at it or
pick it up to know if it's full or empty. A battery has the same
appearance and weight whether it is charged or empty.
It is necessary for some hardware to convert voltage values for the
computer to try to estimate how much the battery is charged. In the
case of the installer it is quite different. There is a way to know
exactly how much is left to install.

You do not listen do you.

I'm detecting a fair amount of OCPD in this thread. <rolling eyes>

Post by William Unruh
As I have already said, it is NOT simple to know how much time there
is left to install. Downloading time varies by orders of magnitude,
depending on the congenstion between your machine and the server, on
your own computer's congestion,etc. And then there is the
installation time, which depends on many things as well. Counting the
number of files to be downloaded is a very bad estimate of how long
it will take to install them after they have been downloaded.
Counting their length similarly does not tell you what the lenght is.
Ie, you have never tried to write a program to determine what the
installation length is going to be and yet you claim yourself to be
an expert.

I have been exclusively using GNU/Linux for 23 years now, and over the
years, I have installed several GNU/Linux distributions on anything
ranging from laptops and desktops to servers. I used to rll my own
kernels — and I've never built a kernel that wouldn't boot — and I've
even dabbled with Gentoo as both dom0 and domU on the Xen hypervisor.

Not a single one of the distribution installers that had a timer was
ever accurate in its presentation of how much time was needed, and the
timer value would often be all over the place, just as when I'm making
a backup with Timeshift. Those timers are not meant to be accurate;
they are meant to be approximations only.

Clock speed, bus speed, drive latency, download speed, number of
files, file size, number of cores and/or threads, process priority,
number of running processes — e.g. running just the installer versus
running it from within a live session — and even the I/O scheduler,
there are simply too many variables. Even a kernel with real-time
patches would have difficulty catching up.

OP should drop the subject. Even Ubuntu's timer is only making a best
guess, and if that best guess happened to be close enough to the actual
time needed for installing for OP to consider that "accurate", then that
would have been a fluke.

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =

David W. Hodgins

2022-12-07 23:07:45 UTC

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
It is necessary for some hardware to convert voltage values for the
computer to try to estimate how much the battery is charged. In the case
of the installer it is quite different. There is a way to know exactly
how much is left to install.

Number of packages left is known.

Some of the things that are not known
- How big those packages are.
- How much cpu time install scriptlets in those packages will use
- How the write speed will vary as many storage devices have different rates
depending on where the data is physically being written.
- Spinning rust drives have different speeds for inner/outer cylinders
- ssd drives can slow down drastically if pages need to be erased between
writes
- Further complicated by "on device buffers", and write through ssd drives
backed by spinning rust, and other variations in storage hardware that
make write speed inconsistent.
- How the download rate will vary, due to contention with other network traffic
on the mirror or the lan, as well as traffic and buffer bloat anywhere in
between.

Post by Gilberto F da Silva
I already understand that there are no personnel available to maintain
this program. Whoever wrote these routines has since left the project
and the program is now used as is.

It's not a matter of not having people capable of changing the code, though there
are only a few that could work on it.

It's a matter of what to change it to given the large number of unknowable or
difficult to compensate for variables and how much effort it would take for a
cosmetic benefit.

That effort can be better utilized elsewhere.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

2022-12-07 00:41:07 UTC